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	<title>Comments on: On the hellpits of abstraction</title>
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	<link>http://thetarpit.org/2020/on-the-hellpits-of-abstraction</link>
	<description>"Now I feel like I know less about what that blog is about than I did before."</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2026 21:50:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: A materialist perspective on metaphysics &#171; The Tar Pit</title>
		<link>http://thetarpit.org/2020/on-the-hellpits-of-abstraction#comment-4273</link>
		<dc:creator>A materialist perspective on metaphysics &#171; The Tar Pit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jun 2023 15:13:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetarpit.org/?p=368#comment-4273</guid>
		<description>[...] to be a definitory characteristic of the so-called humanity: man is the only species capable of abstract [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to be a definitory characteristic of the so-called humanity: man is the only species capable of abstract [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Notes on Hofstadter's Coffeehouse Conversation &#171; The Tar Pit</title>
		<link>http://thetarpit.org/2020/on-the-hellpits-of-abstraction#comment-2477</link>
		<dc:creator>Notes on Hofstadter's Coffeehouse Conversation &#171; The Tar Pit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jul 2022 13:23:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetarpit.org/?p=368#comment-2477</guid>
		<description>[...] and the questions about interpretation reveal that the Turing test works precisely by obscuring the layers of abstraction (be they mechanical, biological or whatever) lying beneath the "device under test". In fact the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and the questions about interpretation reveal that the Turing test works precisely by obscuring the layers of abstraction (be they mechanical, biological or whatever) lying beneath the "device under test". In fact the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Briefly, on programming IRC bots using Common Lisp &#171; The Tar Pit</title>
		<link>http://thetarpit.org/2020/on-the-hellpits-of-abstraction#comment-438</link>
		<dc:creator>Briefly, on programming IRC bots using Common Lisp &#171; The Tar Pit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2020 06:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetarpit.org/?p=368#comment-438</guid>
		<description>[...] connection when IRC goes down. Yes, I could do it somewhere deeper or shallower down the ladder of abstraction, but there's no proper measure to decide upon the right place to introduce this change, since [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] connection when IRC goes down. Yes, I could do it somewhere deeper or shallower down the ladder of abstraction, but there's no proper measure to decide upon the right place to introduce this change, since [...]</p>
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		<title>By: "But the real universe is always one step beyond logic." &#171; The Tar Pit</title>
		<link>http://thetarpit.org/2020/on-the-hellpits-of-abstraction#comment-430</link>
		<dc:creator>"But the real universe is always one step beyond logic." &#171; The Tar Pit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2020 06:49:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetarpit.org/?p=368#comment-430</guid>
		<description>[...] as much as my feeble mind can encompass of it so far. Meanwhile, however, I've stumbled upon some old pieces, among which the quote above, plus a few other texts, which together started clicking in my head, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] as much as my feeble mind can encompass of it so far. Meanwhile, however, I've stumbled upon some old pieces, among which the quote above, plus a few other texts, which together started clicking in my head, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: spyked</title>
		<link>http://thetarpit.org/2020/on-the-hellpits-of-abstraction#comment-314</link>
		<dc:creator>spyked</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2020 17:38:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetarpit.org/?p=368#comment-314</guid>
		<description>In vaguely-related recursive lulz, and re. dunning-krugerisms: yes, I can totally see how I'm not equipped with the &lt;em&gt;linguistic means&lt;/em&gt; required to properly explore this field. The funny thing being that this is what I was attempting to explore in the first place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In vaguely-related recursive lulz, and re. dunning-krugerisms: yes, I can totally see how I'm not equipped with the <em>linguistic means</em> required to properly explore this field. The funny thing being that this is what I was attempting to explore in the first place.</p>
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		<title>By: spyked</title>
		<link>http://thetarpit.org/2020/on-the-hellpits-of-abstraction#comment-313</link>
		<dc:creator>spyked</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2020 17:30:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetarpit.org/?p=368#comment-313</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Do you mean effect as in, "the structure of language can cause the understanding of declarations" or do you actually mean affect, as in "the structure of language can change the understanding of declarations" ?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think the term I was looking for was "influence", i.e. to exert some effect on how declarations are understood. Thanks for the observation, fixed it.

&lt;blockquote&gt;You don't (I presume, for lack of familiarity) continue any body of work, references to which would allow meaningful interpretation of the symbols and relations you propose ; nor do you (I presume, for lack of capacity) start a novel line in the field.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Indeed, I don't do any of the things mentioned, and precisely for the reasons mentioned. I guess if anything, the thing could be simply filed under "intellectual masturbation".

&lt;blockquote&gt;you simply attempt to defraud the reader,&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, I'm taking some ideas and trying to explore them with the limited tools I have at my disposal, for my own pleasure. Whether they'll lead anywhere or not, whether they were crooked or not from the beginning, whether this is akin to a caveman trying to build a spaceship, I don't think it really matters.

Speaking of which: how on Earth do you presume to know what &lt;em&gt;I&lt;/em&gt; attempt? If you think that I'm being intellectually dishonest, then call it out, or if that's too much of a bother then shut the fuck up... or don't, whatever, I just don't see this going anywhere, just like I didn't see that other discussion, perhaps for my dunning-krugerism. Perhaps in nine years from now I'll see it rereading this, perhaps I won't be here to see it in a year from now, so tell me: who the fuck cares what "I attempt" anyway?

If, say, this were a year of the Republic (and if I were someone and/or something else, perhaps), then yes, perhaps I would have gladly taken it upon myself to properly destroy this &lt;em&gt;in that framework&lt;/em&gt;, but that's all gone now, so... what of it? None of it really matters, really. I'm well aware of that, check this out: the text has been on the interwebs since fucking 2011 (as the one on engineering was out there since what, 2016?) and nobody bothered to react to it in any way, &lt;em&gt;until now&lt;/em&gt;. So tell me, why the fuck would I give two shits?

&lt;blockquote&gt;but I also can't read this sort of thing. Sorry.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I'm sorry to hear that. On the flip side, I didn't ask to be taken seriously. 'Tis just another blog on the web of horse shit, by the time I'm done with it I might just yet alienate all of my readers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Do you mean effect as in, "the structure of language can cause the understanding of declarations" or do you actually mean affect, as in "the structure of language can change the understanding of declarations" ?</p></blockquote>
<p>I think the term I was looking for was "influence", i.e. to exert some effect on how declarations are understood. Thanks for the observation, fixed it.</p>
<blockquote><p>You don't (I presume, for lack of familiarity) continue any body of work, references to which would allow meaningful interpretation of the symbols and relations you propose ; nor do you (I presume, for lack of capacity) start a novel line in the field.</p></blockquote>
<p>Indeed, I don't do any of the things mentioned, and precisely for the reasons mentioned. I guess if anything, the thing could be simply filed under "intellectual masturbation".</p>
<blockquote><p>you simply attempt to defraud the reader,</p></blockquote>
<p>No, I'm taking some ideas and trying to explore them with the limited tools I have at my disposal, for my own pleasure. Whether they'll lead anywhere or not, whether they were crooked or not from the beginning, whether this is akin to a caveman trying to build a spaceship, I don't think it really matters.</p>
<p>Speaking of which: how on Earth do you presume to know what <em>I</em> attempt? If you think that I'm being intellectually dishonest, then call it out, or if that's too much of a bother then shut the fuck up... or don't, whatever, I just don't see this going anywhere, just like I didn't see that other discussion, perhaps for my dunning-krugerism. Perhaps in nine years from now I'll see it rereading this, perhaps I won't be here to see it in a year from now, so tell me: who the fuck cares what "I attempt" anyway?</p>
<p>If, say, this were a year of the Republic (and if I were someone and/or something else, perhaps), then yes, perhaps I would have gladly taken it upon myself to properly destroy this <em>in that framework</em>, but that's all gone now, so... what of it? None of it really matters, really. I'm well aware of that, check this out: the text has been on the interwebs since fucking 2011 (as the one on engineering was out there since what, 2016?) and nobody bothered to react to it in any way, <em>until now</em>. So tell me, why the fuck would I give two shits?</p>
<blockquote><p>but I also can't read this sort of thing. Sorry.</p></blockquote>
<p>I'm sorry to hear that. On the flip side, I didn't ask to be taken seriously. 'Tis just another blog on the web of horse shit, by the time I'm done with it I might just yet alienate all of my readers.</p>
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		<title>By: Mircea Popescu</title>
		<link>http://thetarpit.org/2020/on-the-hellpits-of-abstraction#comment-311</link>
		<dc:creator>Mircea Popescu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2020 14:15:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetarpit.org/?p=368#comment-311</guid>
		<description>&#62; the structure of language can effect the understanding of declarations

Do you mean effect as in, "the structure of language can &lt;em&gt;cause&lt;/em&gt; the understanding of declarations" or do you actually mean affect, as in "the structure of language can &lt;em&gt;change&lt;/em&gt; the understanding of declarations" ?

That aside : the problem with &lt;a href="http://trilema.com/2010/hai-sa-studiem-gramatica-impreuna/?b=Meriti&#38;e=incepator#select" rel="nofollow"&gt;ingenue&lt;/a&gt; attempts at (structuralist, or otherwise) semiotics/semiology is that they're definitionally devoid of any possible meaning. 

You don't (I presume, for lack of familiarity) continue any body of work, references to which would allow meaningful interpretation of the symbols and relations you propose ; nor do you (I presume, for lack of capacity) start a novel line in the field. Instead of either potentially respectable (though generally failful) approaches, you simply attempt to defraud the reader, who's expected to not notice that no, "immediate meaning" is not a thing, and "using everyday words" in "their obvious sense" for this purpose is akin to using your kitchen in the usual manner for medical procedures.

You ran into &lt;a href="http://trilema.com/2019/the-alleged-crisis-of-the-supposed-engineering-or-mistaken-identities-pantomiming-a-comedy-of-manners/" rel="nofollow"&gt;the exact same problem&lt;/a&gt; with your attempt at a high level discussion of "engineering", but you failed to diagnose it there, also, for &lt;a href="http://trilema.com/2015/recursive-dunning-kruger/" rel="nofollow"&gt;the same fundamental reasons&lt;/a&gt;.

I don't expect a practical solution is possible, for many reasons (such as for instance that the materially comfortable if intellectually stimulating situation of the Swiss de Saussure family a century ago is not available for some Romanian kid today ; these things are fundamentally not within the purlieu of they who have to work for a living, nor is &lt;a href="http://trilema.com/2010/categorii-sociale/?b=Prima%20solutie&#38;e=paun#select" rel="nofollow"&gt;faking it&lt;/a&gt; a workable solution to the problem ; bad habits and counterproductive inhabituations already acquired are likely to overwhelm any attempts at self-righting etcetera) ; but I also can't read this sort of thing. Sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; the structure of language can effect the understanding of declarations</p>
<p>Do you mean effect as in, "the structure of language can <em>cause</em> the understanding of declarations" or do you actually mean affect, as in "the structure of language can <em>change</em> the understanding of declarations" ?</p>
<p>That aside : the problem with <a href="http://trilema.com/2010/hai-sa-studiem-gramatica-impreuna/?b=Meriti&amp;e=incepator#select" rel="nofollow">ingenue</a> attempts at (structuralist, or otherwise) semiotics/semiology is that they're definitionally devoid of any possible meaning. </p>
<p>You don't (I presume, for lack of familiarity) continue any body of work, references to which would allow meaningful interpretation of the symbols and relations you propose ; nor do you (I presume, for lack of capacity) start a novel line in the field. Instead of either potentially respectable (though generally failful) approaches, you simply attempt to defraud the reader, who's expected to not notice that no, "immediate meaning" is not a thing, and "using everyday words" in "their obvious sense" for this purpose is akin to using your kitchen in the usual manner for medical procedures.</p>
<p>You ran into <a href="http://trilema.com/2019/the-alleged-crisis-of-the-supposed-engineering-or-mistaken-identities-pantomiming-a-comedy-of-manners/" rel="nofollow">the exact same problem</a> with your attempt at a high level discussion of "engineering", but you failed to diagnose it there, also, for <a href="http://trilema.com/2015/recursive-dunning-kruger/" rel="nofollow">the same fundamental reasons</a>.</p>
<p>I don't expect a practical solution is possible, for many reasons (such as for instance that the materially comfortable if intellectually stimulating situation of the Swiss de Saussure family a century ago is not available for some Romanian kid today ; these things are fundamentally not within the purlieu of they who have to work for a living, nor is <a href="http://trilema.com/2010/categorii-sociale/?b=Prima%20solutie&amp;e=paun#select" rel="nofollow">faking it</a> a workable solution to the problem ; bad habits and counterproductive inhabituations already acquired are likely to overwhelm any attempts at self-righting etcetera) ; but I also can't read this sort of thing. Sorry.</p>
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		<title>By: Again on "general-purpose" tools &#171; The Tar Pit</title>
		<link>http://thetarpit.org/2020/on-the-hellpits-of-abstraction#comment-307</link>
		<dc:creator>Again on "general-purpose" tools &#171; The Tar Pit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetarpit.org/?p=368#comment-307</guid>
		<description>[...] So, as I was saying: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] So, as I was saying: [...]</p>
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