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	<title>Comments on: Further on the future of edumacation</title>
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	<link>http://thetarpit.org/2024/further-on-the-future-of-edumacation</link>
	<description>"Now I feel like I know less about what that blog is about than I did before."</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2026 03:35:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Artificial intelligence &#171; The Tar Pit</title>
		<link>http://thetarpit.org/2024/further-on-the-future-of-edumacation#comment-5108</link>
		<dc:creator>Artificial intelligence &#171; The Tar Pit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 May 2024 21:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetarpit.org/?p=535#comment-5108</guid>
		<description>[...] definitely somewhere, and if not through technological advancement, then merely by virtue of the failure of education it'll soon have more PhDs than you could get in a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] definitely somewhere, and if not through technological advancement, then merely by virtue of the failure of education it'll soon have more PhDs than you could get in a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: spyked</title>
		<link>http://thetarpit.org/2024/further-on-the-future-of-edumacation#comment-4920</link>
		<dc:creator>spyked</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2024 21:05:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Way I see it, this distinction between "instruction" and "indoctrination" is entirely arbitrary -- all education is indoctrination, whether we're talking about reading and writing (one cannot be separated from the other, can it? and reading can't be separated from the language and the specific texts/ideas being parsed) or the practices involving vigorous physical activity in ancient Lacedemonia. We may live to see the times when people become subjects to indoctrination entirely without the expensive need to read and write. Emojis and ubiquitous audio/video seem to be steps in that direction, among others.

I agree that the system has a systemic problem and that the labour issue is merely a consequence. Still, just like you said:

&gt; Yes, technology is not a magic bullet, adoption is slow, 99% of content is still crap, but still...

Still, a choice between raising folks in the old pile of garbage versus raising them in the brand new one ain't much of a choice if you ask me. Let me exemplify this dilemma through the following example: how do you teach a kid to discern between "good" and "bad" yt videos in an age where Google's algorithm is hell bent on shoving nonsense down everyone's throat? Plenty of edumacated adults have trouble sorting this out today, so unless through some feat of evolution the next generation learns to game the game (how though?), it's bound to run into the same issues.

I'm pretty sure we're almost back in a postmodern version of the medieval times, where "proper" education is reserved to the select few. And by "select few" I don't necessarily mean Gates and his ilk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Way I see it, this distinction between "instruction" and "indoctrination" is entirely arbitrary -- all education is indoctrination, whether we're talking about reading and writing (one cannot be separated from the other, can it? and reading can't be separated from the language and the specific texts/ideas being parsed) or the practices involving vigorous physical activity in ancient Lacedemonia. We may live to see the times when people become subjects to indoctrination entirely without the expensive need to read and write. Emojis and ubiquitous audio/video seem to be steps in that direction, among others.</p>
<p>I agree that the system has a systemic problem and that the labour issue is merely a consequence. Still, just like you said:</p>
<p>> Yes, technology is not a magic bullet, adoption is slow, 99% of content is still crap, but still...</p>
<p>Still, a choice between raising folks in the old pile of garbage versus raising them in the brand new one ain't much of a choice if you ask me. Let me exemplify this dilemma through the following example: how do you teach a kid to discern between "good" and "bad" yt videos in an age where Google's algorithm is hell bent on shoving nonsense down everyone's throat? Plenty of edumacated adults have trouble sorting this out today, so unless through some feat of evolution the next generation learns to game the game (how though?), it's bound to run into the same issues.</p>
<p>I'm pretty sure we're almost back in a postmodern version of the medieval times, where "proper" education is reserved to the select few. And by "select few" I don't necessarily mean Gates and his ilk.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Cel Mihanie</title>
		<link>http://thetarpit.org/2024/further-on-the-future-of-edumacation#comment-4919</link>
		<dc:creator>Cel Mihanie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2024 08:21:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetarpit.org/?p=535#comment-4919</guid>
		<description>Now you dun it. You said the E-word. My berserk button.

We may have had this conversation before, I don't know, but way I see it, education has two chief components: instruction and indoctrination.

Instruction consists of putting allegedly ideologically-neutral information into the kid's head, like how to do "maffs", how to "write good", etc. This is done because it is good in itself (the idealist view), because it is required for the kid to survive in a technological civilization (the neutral view) and because it prepares the kid for being useful in the labor market (the cynical view).

Indoctrination consists of attempting to instill the ideological/cultural values of the society into the kid, good or bad as they may be. This sounds evil, and often is in practice, but you can't fault a collective for wanting to ensure a new member is compatible and not an enemy. The ultimate effect depends on the society... A Nazi society will of course try and often succeed in instilling Nazi beliefs through education. And even harmless societies will bother the kid with all sorts of obscure old authors that were never that great on a global scale, but they're "our" authors. In the end you can't avoid this aspect. In theory kids should be free to make up their mind themselves, but we live in real life, not some libertautist fantasy, and collectives will always have a say.

Anyway. Education as conceived up to now (basically the Prussian model) is completely and utterly defeated, finished and doomed on both fronts, mainly due to technology. Yes, technology is not a magic bullet, adoption is slow, 99% of content is still crap, but still... YouTube alone can and does instruct and indoctrinate people at a scale and finesse that traditional methods can never possibly compete with. I know I've talked about kids being glued to their tablets, which is bad, yes, but one is not going to fix it by dreaming of bygone pășunist Dl Trandafir days, or bygone ceaușist days with the proverbial enthusiastic pionier sucking up to the proverbial respected Domprofesor in a suit. For the Prussian system, it's game over, man. The indoctrination aspect of it has it even worse, as there is a mass delusion and denial about the exact set of values society is trying to instill. Allegedly we're supposed to indoctrinate kids into being rational, respectful, hardworking, lawful, nonviolent, yadda yadda. It doesn't work, the kids don't believe a word of it. Because they can both feel that society is lying about the values it supposedly believes in, and because the Internet is much more convincing in showing that the world works completely differently to these values (regardless of how true that statement is). 

I find it honestly incredible how deluded people nowadays are, especially Romanians and Boomers in general, about "education". They all see it as some sort of magic thing that will make all problems go away. If only we had "more education", they bleat, surely that would do the trick! Bet they wouldn't want a Nazi society to educate its kids "more", now would they? And in any case, all the "more" in the world will not make a difference to a system that is obsolete and failed to its very core. No more than "more" CPR would help on a body when, alas, it just so happens that the head is in some bushes 50m away. "Lesions incompatible with life", as the saying goes.

Which finally brings me to I guess what my main point re. your article is, namely: I don't think "better people" in the system will help either. The better people are out there on YouTube, the better people are using the new technologies and trying to rescue what little can be rescued, the better people escaped the sinking ship or had the sense to never get on board, the better people is you, frankly. The old system is deader than disco. Let it rot.

As for Sârbu, the PRO TV guy, he's clearly trolling in this particular instance but I've heard many of his other statements over the years and yes, he's generally pretty out there, and not in a good way. Fitting that he should mention the Children's Party (again with the CHEELDREN!!), "infantile" is how I'd describe his usual ramblings. CEOs are often like that, especially American(ized) ones. In a way his grisly vision has already come true. The mental age of politicians is clearly in the toddler area, and as for the president... I don't know. Can a piece of furniture be said to have a mental age?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now you dun it. You said the E-word. My berserk button.</p>
<p>We may have had this conversation before, I don't know, but way I see it, education has two chief components: instruction and indoctrination.</p>
<p>Instruction consists of putting allegedly ideologically-neutral information into the kid's head, like how to do "maffs", how to "write good", etc. This is done because it is good in itself (the idealist view), because it is required for the kid to survive in a technological civilization (the neutral view) and because it prepares the kid for being useful in the labor market (the cynical view).</p>
<p>Indoctrination consists of attempting to instill the ideological/cultural values of the society into the kid, good or bad as they may be. This sounds evil, and often is in practice, but you can't fault a collective for wanting to ensure a new member is compatible and not an enemy. The ultimate effect depends on the society... A Nazi society will of course try and often succeed in instilling Nazi beliefs through education. And even harmless societies will bother the kid with all sorts of obscure old authors that were never that great on a global scale, but they're "our" authors. In the end you can't avoid this aspect. In theory kids should be free to make up their mind themselves, but we live in real life, not some libertautist fantasy, and collectives will always have a say.</p>
<p>Anyway. Education as conceived up to now (basically the Prussian model) is completely and utterly defeated, finished and doomed on both fronts, mainly due to technology. Yes, technology is not a magic bullet, adoption is slow, 99% of content is still crap, but still... YouTube alone can and does instruct and indoctrinate people at a scale and finesse that traditional methods can never possibly compete with. I know I've talked about kids being glued to their tablets, which is bad, yes, but one is not going to fix it by dreaming of bygone pășunist Dl Trandafir days, or bygone ceaușist days with the proverbial enthusiastic pionier sucking up to the proverbial respected Domprofesor in a suit. For the Prussian system, it's game over, man. The indoctrination aspect of it has it even worse, as there is a mass delusion and denial about the exact set of values society is trying to instill. Allegedly we're supposed to indoctrinate kids into being rational, respectful, hardworking, lawful, nonviolent, yadda yadda. It doesn't work, the kids don't believe a word of it. Because they can both feel that society is lying about the values it supposedly believes in, and because the Internet is much more convincing in showing that the world works completely differently to these values (regardless of how true that statement is). </p>
<p>I find it honestly incredible how deluded people nowadays are, especially Romanians and Boomers in general, about "education". They all see it as some sort of magic thing that will make all problems go away. If only we had "more education", they bleat, surely that would do the trick! Bet they wouldn't want a Nazi society to educate its kids "more", now would they? And in any case, all the "more" in the world will not make a difference to a system that is obsolete and failed to its very core. No more than "more" CPR would help on a body when, alas, it just so happens that the head is in some bushes 50m away. "Lesions incompatible with life", as the saying goes.</p>
<p>Which finally brings me to I guess what my main point re. your article is, namely: I don't think "better people" in the system will help either. The better people are out there on YouTube, the better people are using the new technologies and trying to rescue what little can be rescued, the better people escaped the sinking ship or had the sense to never get on board, the better people is you, frankly. The old system is deader than disco. Let it rot.</p>
<p>As for Sârbu, the PRO TV guy, he's clearly trolling in this particular instance but I've heard many of his other statements over the years and yes, he's generally pretty out there, and not in a good way. Fitting that he should mention the Children's Party (again with the CHEELDREN!!), "infantile" is how I'd describe his usual ramblings. CEOs are often like that, especially American(ized) ones. In a way his grisly vision has already come true. The mental age of politicians is clearly in the toddler area, and as for the president... I don't know. Can a piece of furniture be said to have a mental age?</p>
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